Should you avoid red meat? What’s the link to cancer? Does it contain better types of proteins? Tune in to hear consultant dietitian Maeve Hanan discuss all things red and processed meat.
Transcript
00:00:00:15 - 00:00:18:22
Tom Livesey
In the first ever episode of the Thriva podcast, Maeve Hanan is here to tackle the question of how red and processed meats affect your health. Maeve is a qualified consultant, dietitian and health writer. She has a broad range of clinical experience within the NHS and also runs the blog Dietetic Steak Income. Maeve is passionate about promoting evidence-based nutrition and her expertise.
00:00:18:29 - 00:00:27:28
Tom Livesey
She often features in a number of reports with health magazines and blogs, including a thriving newspaper. Maybe it's really good to have you here. Thanks so much for joining us.
00:00:28:02 - 00:00:29:06
Maeve Hanan
Thanks so much for having me on.
00:00:29:27 - 00:00:32:28
Tom Livesey
So first things first. How do we actually define red meat?
00:00:33:10 - 00:00:44:23
Maeve Hanan
So a very good place to start. So red meat is meat that is red when it's raw. So that would include beef, lamb, pork, venison and even goat and horse meat as well.
00:00:45:07 - 00:00:51:04
Tom Livesey
Okay, great. And therefore, what's the difference between kind of red and processed red meat or just process mace in general?
00:00:51:07 - 00:01:21:19
Maeve Hanan
So red meat is the kind of fresh red meat. So it's, you know, steak or pork chop or something like that, whereas processed red meat is red meat that has been processed, preserved in some way. So generally it has been smoked or cured or salted or certain preservatives have been added. So often nitrates and nitrites are added to preserve meat, and examples of processed meats would be things like bacon, sausages, ham paté, corned beef, salami.
00:01:21:28 - 00:01:29:13
Maeve Hanan
And it also includes things like sliced chicken and sliced turkey. So even though they're not red meat, they're still classed as a processed meat.
00:01:29:21 - 00:01:38:20
Tom Livesey
OK. Interesting. So it's important to remember that when we're talking about kind of processed meats as part of the studies or anything like that, it could also include things like turkey or chicken if it had some kind of treatment.
00:01:38:23 - 00:01:50:05
Maeve Hanan
Exactly. And it depends. I mean, sometimes chicken or turkey, it may not have the nitrates or nitrites added, but for the most part, it does. So you're better off to go for fresh chicken or fresh turkey breast.
00:01:50:16 - 00:02:02:12
Tom Livesey
So there's lots of evidence talking about the risks of eating red meat, which we'll go into more detail on. But dietary guidelines say it can be declared as part of a healthy diet. So can you talk about some of the kind of benefits of red meat?
00:02:02:18 - 00:02:23:17
Maeve Hanan
Red meat is a very nutritious food. First of all, it's really high in protein. So it's called a complete protein because it contains all nine essential amino acids. So these essential amino acids are the building blocks of protein that our body can't make itself. So it's essential that we have them in our diet. And red meat would contain all of these.
00:02:24:09 - 00:02:48:01
Maeve Hanan
And so we're thinking of more practical terms. Most people should aim for between 20 to 40 grams of protein a meal and a small portion of meat. So like, say, a foreign steak, something like that would have about 30 to 40 grams of protein in there. So red meat is definitely a really good source of protein and also provides us with different vitamins and minerals.
00:02:48:11 - 00:03:16:01
Maeve Hanan
So it's particularly a good source of b-vitamins and especially vitamin B12. And B12 is really important for our metabolism, for our energy levels and for our cognition and how our brain functions. Zinc is another important one that we get really good levels and red meat and zinc is important for healing wounds for our immune system, for our body to create DNA and iron is another really important one.
00:03:16:14 - 00:03:35:15
Maeve Hanan
You know, we need enough iron to avoid anaemia because iron helps to make haemoglobin in our cells, which carries oxygen around the body. So if we don't have enough iron, then we're at a high risk of getting anemia, or we feel fatigued,tired, and pale. And basically the oxygen isn't getting around the body like it should.
00:03:36:08 - 00:03:43:17
Maeve Hanan
So if we compare something like red meat to, say, chicken, red meat, we have triple the amount of iron and zinc as compared with chicken.
00:03:43:24 - 00:03:53:27
Tom Livesey
Wow. Okay. So there's definitely kind of some good stuff in there. So we're not saying that there are no benefits. It still has high nutritional value and there's still kind of some value to be had in eating meat as part of a healthy, balanced diet.
00:03:53:28 - 00:04:11:28
Maeve Hanan
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the messages around red meat have been quite polarised. They're very all-or-nothing — some people feel that it's really essential and we should be eating a lot and other people feeling that you should be eating no meat at all. And actually, as with nutrition, it's all about the context and the amounts that we're eating.
00:04:12:14 - 00:04:22:12
Maeve Hanan
And the truth kind of always lies somewhere in the middle. And with red meats, it is the case that it is a very nutritious food. But we need to have a think about the amounts that we're eating overall.
00:04:22:17 - 00:04:39:25
Tom Livesey
OK, great. So there definitely seems to be some possible downsides to including red and processed meats in our diets. So there are major organisations like the World Health Organization, World Cancer Research Fund and the NHS all recommend limiting intake. Can you explain a bit about why we should be limiting our intake?
00:04:40:02 - 00:05:13:11
Maeve Hanan
Yes. So now we have these new classifications for risk of cancer and processed meat sits in Group one, so it's now a definite cause of cancer. And the just the red meat to the fresh red meat, but not the processed one is in group two A, which is a possible cause of cancer. So the reason that red or processed meats are linked with cancer is because either of natural chemicals that are found in the meat or those that can be added during processing.
00:05:13:29 - 00:05:50:22
Maeve Hanan
So heme, for example, is this natural red pigment that we get in meat and that's possibly linked with interacting with the cells in the bowel, which may increase the risk of cancer. And similarly, for nitrates and nitrites, which are chemicals that are generally added when meat is processed to keep it fresher for longer. And then we also have these other chemicals that are produced when we cook meat at high temperatures, or especially if meat becomes charred or burnt, which are called polycyclic amines or hetero heterocyclic amines.
00:05:51:10 - 00:06:11:20
Maeve Hanan
And so all those three things. So the heme, the nitrates, the nitrites and the polycyclic amines, they may interact with the cells in the bowel and possibly damage these. And I think that's what increases the risk of cancer. And that's why there's actually a higher risk with the processed meats because you're also adding in those nitrites and nitrates.
00:06:12:01 - 00:06:21:10
Tom Livesey
Yeah, that makes sense. So there are a few things we know might increase the risk there. So an obvious follow-up question would be what do the guidelines say around the amounts of red and processed meat we can safely include?
00:06:22:06 - 00:06:45:28
Maeve Hanan
So the recommended intake of red meat is 70 grams per day and the recommendations around the processed meat is to have little, if any, processed meats. So basically you wouldn't want to be have the processed meat more than about once a week. And in terms of that 70 grams, what that would actually look like in practical terms is kind of three typical portions of red meat per week.
00:06:46:10 - 00:07:04:09
Maeve Hanan
Or if you want to be a little more specific and look at it on a day-by-day basis, you know what we fit into that 70 grams would be like two thin slices of roast beef or pork. It would be four slices of ham, it would be a foreign steak or two sausages or two rashes.
00:07:04:22 - 00:07:12:07
Maeve Hanan
But again, the sausages and rashers would all be the processed types, and they would be the ones that you wouldn't want to be having too regularly anyway.
00:07:12:26 - 00:07:22:09
Tom Livesey
Makes sense. And is there any evidence to suggest any difference in, say, having smaller amounts every day versus having one kind of bigger portion a week or two bigger portions a week?
00:07:22:15 - 00:07:44:14
Maeve Hanan
I think it's more about the kind of the average intake over time. Most people who eat meat have more than 70 grams in a sitting. And so I think the message of trying not to have red meat in your meal every day is quite a good one because we don't always weigh our portions.
00:07:44:22 - 00:08:05:17
Maeve Hanan
So you can get those nutritional benefits from having red meats 1 to 3 times a week, but then you also get benefits of having more variety in the overall diet and having oily fish, at least once a week, and then white fish at least once a week, and then maybe some lean meats like your chicken and turkey and then maybe some meat-free meals in there as well.
00:08:06:03 - 00:08:12:06
Maeve Hanan
So actually, I think that's a better overall health message. What we're trying to aim is to get the balance right in the diet.
00:08:12:21 - 00:08:17:27
Tom Livesey
Yeah, I suppose if you're getting the variety in there, it becomes easier to kind of limit the intake of other things by it. By necessity, right?
00:08:18:03 - 00:08:19:02
Maeve Hanan
Exactly. Yeah.
00:08:19:12 - 00:08:27:16
Tom Livesey
So there was also a recent UK Biobank study which suggests the national guidelines might need to lower the maximum recommended intake even further. Can you explain a bit about this?
00:08:28:13 - 00:08:48:24
Maeve Hanan
Yes. So this study was quite a large study of about 10,000 people, and they compared people who ate a low amount of red and processed meats at about 21 grams a day to those who ate a slightly higher amount, about 76 grams per day. But those that were having the higher amount, it's still, I mean, it's very close to actually the recommended daily intake anyway.
00:08:49:16 - 00:09:13:29
Maeve Hanan
And what they found was the people who were having 76 grams had about a 20% higher risk of bowel cancer compared to those who were having the lower of it. But that 20% increased risk is called the relative risk. So that's not actually the overall risk. So that's just kind of the change in risk, and that's the one that we tend to see in the headlines more often because it's usually a bit more of a dramatic figure.
00:09:13:29 - 00:09:40:02
Maeve Hanan
It's usually a higher number. But if we're talking about the actual risk, it changed from so 40 people being diagnosed with cancer in every 10,000 people if they were having the 21 grams, and that's increased to 48 per 10,000 with those with the 76 grams of red or processed meats. So it is still a significant change, but it doesn't sound quite as dramatic as a 20% increased risk.
00:09:40:13 - 00:09:52:08
Tom Livesey
Yeah, I think it's really important to understand kind of the differences in those figures is not I think, as you say, often what we hear about are the big percentages, and people often assume the worst when it comes to things like that. And it does seem very, very scary.
00:09:52:16 - 00:09:58:03
Maeve Hanan
Absolutely. I think it's really important to put these numbers into context, so we actually know what the risk is.
00:09:59:10 - 00:10:10:03
Tom Livesey
And it also seems as part of that study well, and evidence, in general, seems to suggest that fibre plays an important part in reducing risks of colorectal cancer in this case.
00:10:10:12 - 00:10:28:18
Maeve Hanan
Yes. So what this study found was those who had more fibre in the diet, particularly from bread and breakfast cereals, are going for the wholegrain versions, had a lower risk of bowel cancer. And as you said, there is now there is really good evidence that having more fibre in the diet helps to reduce the risk of bowel cancer.
00:10:29:19 - 00:10:55:00
Maeve Hanan
And that's part of the reason red meat is classed as possibly increasing that risk of cancer, because it may be that our fibre intake confounds that evidence. So, for example, people who eat more red meat are likely to be eating less plants and have less fibre in the diet. So we don't really know for sure if it's definitely the increase in the fresh red meat or is it actually the decrease in fibre or is it a bit of both?
00:10:55:17 - 00:11:16:10
Maeve Hanan
And that's different from the processed meat because we know there is a definite risk there. And the reason that we think having fibre can help to reduce this risk is, first of all, it's really good for our overall good health and getting the balance of good bacteria. So improving that, keeping our bowels regular, that's a really important mechanism.
00:11:16:10 - 00:11:43:22
Maeve Hanan
So if you're having enough fibre and enough fluid and you know it's helping the bowels to open more regularly, it means that harmful chemicals are going to move through that digestive system more quickly. So, for example, the nitrates, if you were to have some bacon, but if you also have a higher intake of fibre in the diet, those nitrates may not interact with the cells in the bowel as much because they won't be sitting there for as long because the whole system is working well.
00:11:44:07 - 00:12:04:18
Maeve Hanan
So they think that might be part some of the mechanism of why having a good intake of fibre helps to kind of counterbalance a little bit of the possible harm from having red meats. But it is important to say that we don't have very strong evidence to say that fibre definitely will balance out the risks from having a high intake of red meat.
00:12:04:27 - 00:12:19:15
Maeve Hanan
So it would still be important to stick to the guidelines of the 1 to 3 portions of red meat per week and limiting the processed meats overall. But for our overall health and for our heart health as well, it's really important to have a good amount of fibre in the diet.
00:12:20:24 - 00:12:25:11
Tom Livesey
That's really interesting. What are the best sources of fibre that people can just kind of easily add into meals?
00:12:25:21 - 00:12:45:20
Maeve Hanan
Yeah. So some of the really high-fibre foods would be some of the bran-based breakfast cereals are very high oats, so a really good source of fibre because they have two types of fibre in there. They have insoluble and soluble fibre. And these fibres, they work in different ways, but having a good intake of both types of fibre is really good for our gut health.
00:12:46:07 - 00:13:17:09
Maeve Hanan
Other good sources are like berries. Raspberries, for example. I have a pair avocado, brown breads. Brown pasta is another really good source. So it's really it's going for the whole grain versions of starchy carbohydrate foods and it's having plenty of fruit and veg, trying to leave the skins on the fruit and veg where possible, trying to just like wash the carrot rather than peeling it to get more fibre if you're having some of the skin and the same with the skin on the potato and then nuts and seeds are a good source as well.
00:13:17:28 - 00:13:29:01
Maeve Hanan
So it's really at every meal and snack trying to get some sort of fibre-containing food in there because we're recommended to get 30 grams of fibre per day, and most people in the UK and Ireland don't get enough fibre.
00:13:29:17 - 00:13:48:24
Tom Livesey
So interesting. So the categories of those are talking more around the evidence and the link between them rather than how bad those things actually are. So kind of I guess it could be confusing for people if, if say, tobacco and red meats and processed meats are placed within the same category, you can see how people are saying, oh, wow, that means smoking is just is just as bad as eating processed meat.
00:13:48:28 - 00:14:17:23
Maeve Hanan
Yeah, really good points. So as I was saying, processed meat is a definite cause of cancer, which is the same category as tobacco consuming alcohol. But that's a category. It doesn't measure the level of risk. So the evidence around tobacco is a much stronger link with smoking than there is with consuming red meat. And that's because for a smaller amount of tobacco, it is a higher risk compared with consuming the processed meat.
00:14:17:23 - 00:14:32:16
Maeve Hanan
So the definitely isn't the same risk there are. Those headlines about consuming meat is just as bad as smoking. It's really not true. So all that group tells us is how good the quality of evidence is. It doesn't tell us the actual level of risk.
00:14:32:17 - 00:14:34:07
Tom Livesey
Yeah, it's really important to remember, isn't it?
00:14:34:28 - 00:14:35:15
Maeve Hanan
Absolutely.
00:14:36:01 - 00:14:51:24
Tom Livesey
So there are lots of kinds of diets these days, particularly kind of high fat and high protein diets like, say, paleo, keto or even the carnivore diet, which is solely animal and or products. And some of these go well above the recommended maximum intakes. So presumably, there is a risk to these diets.
00:14:52:02 - 00:15:09:29
Maeve Hanan
Yes, there is. And I mean, it's what we've been talking about earlier. It's that possible increased risk of bowel cancer. First of all. And also, I suppose a high intake of red meat can increase our intake of saturated fat, which may increase the risk of heart disease. It's a little bit of mixed evidence in terms of red meat and heart disease.
00:15:10:08 - 00:15:28:29
Maeve Hanan
But overall, we should be mindful of our intake of saturated fats to keep our heart healthy, so consuming big amounts of meat and high-fat foods in general. It also means that we're cutting back on the plants and as we were saying and of plants and lots of fibre in the diet is just really important for our overall health.
00:15:29:16 - 00:16:05:17
Maeve Hanan
You know, having your 5 to 10 portions of fruit and veg a day helps to reduce the risk of the whole cancer of heart disease, of diabetes. So it's just really good for us. So some of these diets can be unbalanced, but it's not to say that if you're if somebody follows one of these diets, that they're definitely unhealthy or that they're definitely going to get a disease because it is about the bigger picture of health and how active we are and are we managing our stress and are we sleeping enough and so it really it is the bigger picture, which is most important, but with some of the more extreme diets, especially the carnivore
00:16:05:17 - 00:16:31:04
Maeve Hanan
diet, that's just absolutely ridiculous. Where this diet, it's only having beef, salt and water. And I think sometimes people added bourbon in there as well. But it's just by no means balanced at all because there's no fruit or veg, no whole grains, beans, nuts, no dairy. So there's a really high risk of nutritional deficiency there, especially in terms of fibre and certain vitamins and also is a very high risk of constipation there.
00:16:31:19 - 00:16:50:18
Maeve Hanan
And so it would definitely not be recommended. That style of eating. It doesn't necessarily mean like, say, for Quito or Paleo that you are having very high amounts of red meat. And I suppose it does make it a little bit more difficult because it being low in carbohydrates then restricts the type of veg and the type of fruit and some of the whole grains that we can have.
00:16:51:00 - 00:17:00:28
Maeve Hanan
So I think if somebody does choose to follow one of those styles of eating it is to just, you know, try and still have as many plants in their diet as possible and as much variety in those plants as they can get.
00:17:02:09 - 00:17:14:10
Tom Livesey
Okay. So we've had some people kind of comment. They were interested as to whether there is reduced risk with, say, organic or grass fed red meat as opposed to mass produced red meat. Is there any evidence to suggest there are differences?
00:17:14:29 - 00:17:44:21
Maeve Hanan
So there are some differences in terms of the overall nutritional quality. We find that grass fed beef, for example, has less total fat than beef that that's been fed with grains. And also the grass fed beef has slightly higher levels of omega three and a healthy type of soft called CLA. Also Vitamin E and vitamin A. So there may be a slightly better nutritional profile there, but some of the differences are quite small, so they're not very significantly different.
00:17:45:07 - 00:18:10:22
Maeve Hanan
And also most of our beef in the UK and Ireland is grass fed for most of the year anyway. So I think a lot of these messages come from countries outside of Europe, for example. So, you know, in America practices can be different. But actually just because of the terrain and the weather we have, most of the time our cattle is actually grass fed anyway and it's really it's being grass fed that makes a difference rather than the organic part of it.
00:18:11:05 - 00:18:30:18
Maeve Hanan
You still get the risks with red meat and spell cancer in organic or in any kind of meat, you're still going to be getting the heme and also the polycyclic amines. And so you might not be getting the nitrates and nitrites and that's really good. But you still have these other two kind of natural chemicals that still may increase the risk of bowel cancer.
00:18:31:05 - 00:18:41:05
Tom Livesey
Makes sense. And I guess presumably you mentioned some of the risk might be down to say carcinogens that produce when cooking the meat, which obviously, I guess that wouldn't make any difference whether it's grass fed or organic.
00:18:41:15 - 00:19:05:14
Maeve Hanan
Exactly. And so cancer research UK, they are kind of official position on it. Is that organic or grass fed red meat isn't necessarily any healthier than the alternatives. So I think really what it comes down to is again the overall amounts that we're having in the diet so perfectly healthy, as I said, to have a few portions of red meat per week, but better to keep it to the fresh red meat rather than the processed versions.
00:19:05:14 - 00:19:36:20
Maeve Hanan
There are some possible other benefits to organic, but it's such a complex picture and overall the benefits aren't really that much difference in terms of the nutritional balance. So if, for example, because it tends to be more expensive as well, so if you end up spending more on that, so you have less to spend on fruit veg and you know, if that makes a difference in that way, then you're better off to go for the ordinary versions and you know, spending the other money on extra fruit and veg or different whole grains and so I don't think it's essential at all.
00:19:36:20 - 00:19:41:27
Maeve Hanan
But if you prefer the grass fed or the organic meat, then you may be getting a slight little benefit there.
00:19:42:08 - 00:19:57:06
Tom Livesey
Interesting. Yeah, I guess there's lots to think about, isn't there, in terms of, you know, it's often something that people don't necessarily consider if it's more expensive. What else are you sacrificing to kind of to pay that money? So if you lower your intake or cut red meats out of your diet, are there any nutrients you might be at risk of not getting enough of?
00:19:57:22 - 00:20:27:22
Maeve Hanan
Yes. So the main nutrients that we may be at risk of deficiency are really iron and vitamin B12. They would then increase the risk of anaemia. If we're low in iron alone B12, we can get two different types of anaemia, which results in fatigue. And you know, our body not getting enough oxygen circulating around it. And then sometimes people need to take supplements or get iron or B12 injections to replace those nutrients so you can get some iron and B12 in plant-based products.
00:20:28:05 - 00:20:51:01
Maeve Hanan
But the types are slightly different. So, for example, we get a type of iron in red meat, which is called him iron and that type of iron, our body is able to use more easily, whereas the type of iron that we get in plant-based sources. So you would get it in like leafy green vegetables and in some whole grains, beans, and certain nuts and seeds.
00:20:51:15 - 00:21:21:06
Maeve Hanan
And so in those kinds of foods, you get the non-heme iron. And what our body needs to do is take that type of iron and convert it into a form that it can use. So that process isn't quite as efficient as just being able to use the iron straight away. So that's one thing to consider, but you can get enough iron on a plant-based diet if you're just paying attention to the diet and just making sure that you're including lots of high iron foods every day and also the certain things you can do.
00:21:21:06 - 00:21:39:22
Maeve Hanan
So make sure you have some vitamin C and iron to increase your absorption. So having a small glass of orange juice with a breakfast cereal fortified with iron, for example, will help you increase your absorption of iron. And then other things like you don't want to be having tea and coffee, right?
00:21:39:22 - 00:22:01:24
Maeve Hanan
With a meal that has iron in it because there are chemicals called tannins in tea and coffee that can block our absorption of iron. So there are little things to think about like that. I think B12 is probably a higher risk of deficiency. Again, we can get it in some plant-based foods, like nutritional yeast, Marmite, and fortified products.
00:22:02:17 - 00:22:23:16
Maeve Hanan
But it's not as reliable. So we can't know for sure just exactly how much B12 is in there. And it's one of the main nutrients that we see if somebody is following a vegan diet. If they're not careful with their supplements and balancing the diet, B12 is probably one of the highest risks of deficiencies. So that is one that most vegans really should be supplementing.
00:22:23:16 - 00:22:39:26
Tom Livesey
Was interesting. Yeah, that's a really good takeaway there. It's interesting what you said about the kind of tannins and red meat as well because I guess, you know, lots of people enjoying a nice glass of red wine with their steak, possibly kind of reducing some of the absorption there, which they may not be aware of.
00:22:39:26 - 00:22:56:20
Maeve Hanan
Yeah, good point. So you do get some of those tannins in, as I said, tea and coffee and also in red wine, you do get tannins and so on there. It's something, I suppose in our culture it's quite normal to have tea or coffee after a meal, but we really should be spacing that out at least half an hour or possibly even an hour.
00:22:57:00 - 00:22:59:20
Maeve Hanan
So that's not interfering with the iron absorption.
00:22:59:20 - 00:23:05:07
Tom Livesey
That's really interesting. And so on the back of that, do you have any tips for reducing red meat consumption?
00:23:06:01 - 00:23:27:17
Maeve Hanan
Yeah. So as I was saying, aiming for at least one meat-free day a week. I think that's a really good thing to do because again, if we're thinking about getting different vegetarian or plant-based meals and you know, increasing our intake of like beans and pulses and vegetables in general and then having, as I said, to oily fish at least once a week.
00:23:27:25 - 00:24:00:29
Maeve Hanan
So you're reducing the intake of red meat to 1 to 3 portions a week which will hopefully help to increase the intake of other sources of protein throughout the week. So having some more plant-based proteins in the diet is a good thing. And I suppose the other thing, the other option is you don't have to go fully meat-free, you can go half and half, so you could make a bolognese that's half mince and half lentils, for example, or it could be a chilli where you use half the amount of meat you would usually use, and then you use more kidney beans or chickpeas.
00:24:00:29 - 00:24:25:15
Maeve Hanan
So there's different tricks like that that you can get a slightly healthier balance, and then there's other things you can do. So if you're thinking of a specific meal, so if you're having like a cooked breakfast, you can try and reduce the bacon and sausages and then add some extra mushroom or tomato or beans to that. So it's really thinking of little tricks where you can start to reduce the red and processed meat and increase the fibre and the planks on the plate.
00:24:25:26 - 00:24:38:24
Tom Livesey
And I think it's really nice to think about it. Obviously, it's easy to put a negative spin on this. Lots of people who enjoy eating better-processed meat kind of we have to kind of reduce this. But I think kind of putting a positive spin on saying, well, actually, you know, there are all these other things that you should be eating more of.
00:24:38:24 - 00:24:51:02
Tom Livesey
It kind of naturally reduces the amount you eat, right? So if you took them out, the thing sorts about like legumes and fish and stuff like that. I guess if you can encourage people to eat more of that, then naturally, they'll be eating kind of fewer meals with that red and processed meat.
00:24:51:02 - 00:25:08:17
Maeve Hanan
Exactly. And I think that nutrition, it's always a good way of doing things is focus on the more rather than the less. So think about what other good nutritious foods can be added, and then naturally, the balance of the diet starts to improve. And so I think that's a really good thing that most of us can think about doing, right?
00:25:08:17 - 00:25:11:16
Tom Livesey
Yeah. A positive spin is always a good way to approach it.
00:25:12:06 - 00:25:12:26
Maeve Hanan
Absolutely.
00:25:14:15 - 00:25:31:16
Tom Livesey
So we've talked a lot about obviously Red Mason Health, but I think a big topic for a lot of people is about red meat in the environment and the kind of environmental impacts that red and processed meat can have. Avoiding meat and dairy products is essentially the single biggest way to reduce your environmental impacts on the planet.
00:25:31:24 - 00:25:43:21
Tom Livesey
So the loss of wild areas to agriculture is the leading cause of the current mass extinction of wildlife. So you touched on this in an earlier article you wrote for our newspaper about the Planetary Health Diet. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:25:44:03 - 00:26:22:09
Maeve Hanan
Yeah. So as you're saying, reducing meat and dairy does have a massive impact on the environment. And, you know, it's great how much awareness is increasing in this area. And that's it's another bonus. You know, it's good for our health, and it's good for the planet. If we do improve the balance of our diets and eat a little bit less meat and try and increase the amount of plants in the diet in terms of the planetary health diet itself, it was a large group of scientists and researchers and specialists who got together, and they came up with some guidelines about, you know, what we should be doing on a global scale to basically balance
00:26:22:09 - 00:26:52:29
Maeve Hanan
out our current diet, to improve our health on the health of the planet. And this is kind of described as a planetary health diet. And what's really interesting about that diet is that it's actually it's not completely meat-free or dairy-free. It's actually just about getting a healthier balance. It's about trying to reduce the intake of meats too, as I was saying, just a few times a week and having some small amounts of dairy in the diet is actually fine within the guidelines they produced as well.
00:26:53:17 - 00:27:15:15
Maeve Hanan
And again, those guidelines they're not even targeted at an individual level. It's actually on a global scale. This is what we should be moving towards. So I think it's really interesting to see. But in terms of what we should be taking from this as individuals, if it brings it back to our public health guidelines, which is eat well guide in the UK, that's actually designed with sustainable eating in mind.
00:27:15:27 - 00:27:38:02
Maeve Hanan
And there's a really interesting study which compared the current average intake of nutrition in the UK and they compared if everybody followed the healthy guidelines compared to what people are currently doing, what impact would that have on the environment? And that actually found a 32% lower environmental impact if people followed the public health guidelines we already have.
00:27:38:19 - 00:27:48:10
Maeve Hanan
And so really, I think that's a really good takeaway message is if we're following our healthy guidelines, then it can make a big difference to our health and the health of the planet.
00:27:49:07 - 00:28:10:26
Tom Livesey
That's really important. And I think that's something that I certainly didn't realize that those dietary guidelines were being designed with that in mind as well. And I think it can be confusing for a lot of people when there's lots of different sources of what they should and shouldn't be doing and kind of actually knowing that having a set of guidelines and principles which if they follow, can have kind of multiple benefits about their own health or an environmental impact as well.
00:28:10:26 - 00:28:11:25
Tom Livesey
And that's really useful to know.
00:28:12:12 - 00:28:32:21
Maeve Hanan
Exactly. And I suppose should be mentioned as well that sustainable eating it's so complex, and there's no really one right or wrong way to do it because part of the sustainable diet, part of the definition of that is it should also be nutritious and culturally acceptable. So it's not going to be the case for everyone to go fully vegan that's going to be nutritious and culturally acceptable for them.
00:28:32:27 - 00:28:55:02
Maeve Hanan
You know, that will be for some people depending on how that diet is done. It also applies to different locations. So in the UK and Ireland, some of our land is really well suited for cattle grazing. So it's not to say that the whole world should go vegan, but actually, on a global level, we should be reducing our reliance on animal-based proteins and increasing our fibre intake in plants.
00:28:55:11 - 00:29:19:19
Maeve Hanan
And another important point when we're thinking about sustainable living is the bigger picture. So obviously, our diet does have a big impact. But if we actually take a step back and look at the bigger picture, I mean, food waste has a massive impact as well. And if we're driving a car regularly, all the emissions associated with that, if we're going a lot of long haul flights and also the onus shouldn't really be just on us as individuals.
00:29:19:19 - 00:29:41:15
Maeve Hanan
The biggest change is going to happen at a higher level from a corporate level and government plans and initiatives because that's really what makes a big difference. And it's fantastic that more people are becoming really interested and passionate about this. And definitely, consumer demand can make a difference. But also, the onus isn't just on us. It has to happen on a bigger scale as well.
00:29:41:15 - 00:29:55:29
Tom Livesey
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's, you know, we've been talking about red meats and health and red meat and environment as kind of separate things. But I guess if you think about environmental impacts and what that might mean for pollution and health and generally, there are all these secondary effects that eating red meat might have down the line, right?
00:29:56:06 - 00:30:18:06
Maeve Hanan
Yeah, exactly. And even in I suppose the production of it all, the foods that is needed for the animals and I suppose even the storage and transport, and it is this really big kind of complex web of all the different sustainable factors to take into account. So definitely a really interesting area, and our understanding is really improving in this area.
00:30:18:19 - 00:30:28:10
Maeve Hanan
But I think as kind of bringing it back to a key message for us as individuals that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. You don't need to go completely meat-free to have a sustainable diet.
00:30:28:20 - 00:30:42:19
Tom Livesey
Fantastic. Great. I think that that wraps it up really nicely. Some of this has been really fascinating. I think there's kind of lots of information here and hopefully kind of has shed some light in all of this for people. But to wrap it all up, what's your takeaway advice?
00:30:43:24 - 00:31:09:14
Maeve Hanan
So I think it's important to acknowledge that meat is a really nutritious food. It's a really good source of protein, of iron, of B vitamins, especially B12. Most of us in the UK and Ireland do eat too much red meat, so we should be trying to cut back to the 1 to 3 portions per week and that would help to reduce the risk of bowel cancer, possibly even improve our overall health and our heart health as well.
00:31:10:06 - 00:31:27:11
Maeve Hanan
And for the environment as well. It is important for most people to try and cut back a little bit, but a plant based diet doesn't actually mean a plant only diet, so we could get the benefits of having lots of plants in the diet without having to cut out meat altogether. So for a lot of people, it's about rebalancing.
00:31:27:11 - 00:31:49:11
Maeve Hanan
So it's about increasing the whole grains, fruit, veg and beans and pulses, nuts and seeds and cutting back slightly on the red meat. But it doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach. I think it's also just really important to mention that obviously we've been focusing in on one topic today talking about red meat, but our red meat consumption is just one part of our overall health puzzle.
00:31:49:23 - 00:32:09:06
Maeve Hanan
So as I mentioned, you know, it's also about the plants and the fibre in the diet, but it's also our overall lifestyle. It's how active are we? How much alcohol do we consume? Are we smoking? How do we manage our stress? Are we getting enough sleep? So it's really all of these healthy lifestyle factors that play an important role in our health.
00:32:09:16 - 00:32:21:08
Tom Livesey
And that's really great. Great. Thank you. So this has been a great intro into the kind of red and processed meat and how it affects our health and actually kind of some of the environment as well. If people wanted to read more about this or learn more and the kind of places they can go.
00:32:22:03 - 00:32:51:22
Maeve Hanan
Yes. So there's some really good resources from the World Cancer Research Fund and also from Cancer Research, UK. NHS Choices as well has some good summaries and information about red meats. Also, on my Web site, Dietetic Speak Income, I've written some articles related to health, dairy, and plant-based diets. And you can also find me on social media, on Instagram and Facebook, at @dieteticallyspeaking and on Twitter, at @DieteticSpeak.
00:32:52:03 - 00:33:15:23
Maeve Hanan
Other places would be if you're actually, you know, really want to get a bit more into the evidence, things like behind the headlines, which is an NHS choices resource is really good. That tends to break down if there's like a new study or like the latest headline, it'll go through the evidence in a bit more detail or if you read the studies yourself or if you're trained in science, actually go into the original source.
00:33:15:23 - 00:33:33:14
Maeve Hanan
So using databases like PubMed to find the original evidence and then, you know, reading through the paper to see the quality of evidence and what the study actually found? Because a lot of the time, the headlines and some of the messages we hear can be a bit sensationalist and misleading maybe.
00:33:33:14 - 00:33:39:04
Tom Livesey
Thank you so much for joining us. Some really good takeaways there and really good information. It's been fantastic to have you on the podcast.
00:33:39:16 - 00:33:40:19
Maeve Hanan
Thanks so much for having me on.
00:33:41:16 - 00:34:03:14
Tom Livesey
Thanks for listening to this week's episode. I've been your host, Tom Livesey. Please like, comment, share, and subscribe on your favourite podcasting app. If you haven't used Thriva before, the code REDMEAT gets you £30 off your first test over £59. Thanks, and see you next time.
